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because she was afraid, and she told me at that time, you know, she had had a run-in with David Price and that Price was trying to get her to tell about the Oglala fire fight, and in the course of that she swore at him, and then he said to her that he would see her dead within the year. And she was upset about that. So when she came and I saw her in September, she said to me, you know, that if you ever want to, if you had to go somewhere, she would go, there was an island where she grew up, and that would be the place she would go that would be safe for her. Then she told me to, that in the rain, she loved the rain, and to always remember her in the rain, and we had this conversation, and at that time her fear was about that. She was angry because still accusations, name calling about her being an informant or a pig, she was angry about that, and then now, but then now the element of fear has been added because of this dialogue she said that she had. Then after she had been arrested in the mobile home incident in Oregon, so this would have been around the end of November or December, I don't remember the exact time, but I got a letter and a ring from her that was delivered through Mathalene White Bear. Q. Who's ring was it? A. It was Anna Mae's ring. Q. How did you know that? A. Because Anna Mae and I had an understanding that just JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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communicate with me, that she would send this ring, because then I would know somebody wasn't playing a bunch of games. Q. You also said you received a letter. A. Yes. Q. Do you still have that letter? A. No, it burned down in my, there was a fire in my home in 1979 and it burned. Q. Do you know Arlo Looking Cloud? A. I have met Arlo once that I can remember. Q. You see him in the courtroom today? A. Yes. Q. Would you point out where he is seated, please? A. Sitting right there. (Indicating). MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect he pointed to the defendant. Your Honor? THE COURT: It may. BY MR. McMAHON: Q. Have you ever had an occasion to visit with Mr. Looking Cloud about Anna Mae's death? A. One time, in 1988. Q. Where was that at? A. My band, we were on tour with a band called Midnight Oil, and we played in Denver, and I saw him then after the show. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Cloud? A. Troy Lynn brought him, Troy Lynn had said to me that Arlo wanted to talk with me. Q. Troy Lynn Yellow Wood? A. Yes. So she brought Arlo to where I was at. Q. And where were you at when you saw Mr. Looking Cloud? A. I think it was in my hotel room in Denver. Q. Who was present during this conversation? A. Myself, Troy Lynn and Arlo. Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud talk to you about what had happened to Anna Mae? A. Yes, he did. Q. What do you remember about him telling you what had happened to her? A. Well, first, I mean I was surprised that he was coming to talk to me about this. Q. You didn't know him at that time? A. No, I may have met him. But, no, I didn't know him. So he told me that he and John Boy and Theda, they had taken her from Troy Lynn's house in Denver, and that they brought her to a place in Rapid City, they took her to one house, one place, and then from there to an empty apartment or house, and that this house belonged to Thelma Rios, and that they kept Anna Mae there for maybe a day. And that while she was there that JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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John Boy and himself, between them, somebody always stayed with her, and she was kept in that house not free to leave. Q. Did he ever mention to you why Anna Mae had been taken to South Dakota? A. To be questioned. Q. About what? A. Being an informant. Q. Did he tell you where they went once they left Rapid City? A. The best I can remember what he said was that they were in Rapid City maybe 24 hours, a day or so, something along that time line, and then they took her to a house near the Indian hospital in Rosebud. Q. Did he say what happened at that house in Rosebud? A. During this whole process that Anna Mae was trying to get them to let her go, talking to them about letting her go, and that she was very afraid. Then they took her, so then when they went to this house near the Indian hospital, then Arlo stayed in the car with Anna Mae and John Boy and Theda went in the house. Q. Did he say if Anna Mae and he had any type of a conversation? A. Is that she was just asking them to let her go. She wanted to be free, she was afraid, you know, and basically it JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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conversation. She is saying to him she wants to, would he let her go. Q. Did he ever mention to you that they had also stopped in Pine Ridge? A. I don't remember him telling me that. Q. He didn't ever mention to you that they stopped at a house in Allen? A. I don't, I truly don't remember it. I mean he may have said it, but I don't remember that. Q. So what did he tell you happened once they left the house in Rosebud? A. Well, John Boy and Theda came out of the house, and that they got in the car and they basically drove up to the place near Wanblee where she was shot. Q. Did he tell you what happened at the site where she was shot? A. That they had, that he and John Boy and Anna Mae got out of the car, and that they walked Anna Mae to a spot where she was shot, and in the course of this walk that Anna Mae was crying, praying, talking about her daughters. She didn't want to lose her daughters, and what were they going to do, please let her go, and things of that nature, and then she knelt, that John Boy had her kneel down, and John Boy shot her in the back of the head. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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THE COURT: Cross exam. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH: Q. Morning, sir. Or almost afternoon I guess it is. In this conversation that you had with Arlo, what year was that? A. 1988. Q. Who else was present during that conversation? A. Troy Lynn. Q. Was she adding to the conversation at all? A. Pardon? Q. Was she talking at the time? A. She may have been, but I don't really remember that. Q. You had spoken to Troy Lynn prior to meeting with Arlo, had you not? A. Yes. Q. And she had told you what she thought Arlo would say to you, isn't that correct? A. No, that's not correct. Q. Did she tell you anything about? A. She said he wanted to talk to me, that he wanted to talk to me, but it was about what happened with Anna Mae, it was in relationship to Anna Mae. Q. Where did this conversation take place with Arlo? A. In a hotel room. Q. In a hotel room? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Is there any possibility it took place in a car? A. We may have went down to the car from there, but basically because they came to my room. Q. First of all, you didn't write any notes of this or anything like that, did you, sir? A. No. Q. I suppose that through the years because you knew Ms. Pictou-Aquash that if something comes out on this subject you would read it if you could? A. I would what? Q. Read something that comes out on this subject, isn't that correct? A. Well, maybe, because it depends on who is writing it, because a lot of people write things that have no basis to reality. Q. It seems to me that at some point in this case you have made a statement to somebody to the effect that it is kind of hard to keep it all straight, what you have read and what you have heard and things like that. You recall anything like that? A. Yes, I do, and it was in regard to a specific statement. Q. Now when we are talking about then what Arlo is telling you in this vehicle, or in the hotel room, as the case may be? A. In the course of the evening. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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today, specifically recall him telling you names of people in Rapid City, or could you have filled that information in? A. He told me the names, because I did not -- he told me those names, there is no mistake about this. Q. There is no mistake about that? A. No mistake about this. Q. And this conversation occurred I think we have established was it '88? A. In 1988. Q. 1988, okay. Did he ever say anything to you about wanting Ms. Pictou-Aquash to die? A. No. I mean no, he didn't say that. The impression I got was that he didn't know what the end result was going to be. That I will say that, but it happened, and he played his role. Q. When you were speaking to him, was it clear to you that the fact that she was killed was a surprise to him? A. I got the impression, I don't know about surprise, but up until the time they left that house. See after they left that house, I don't know about surprises any more, alright, because somebody said to do this, but up until the time they went to that house I don't think he expected that she would be killed. Q. You just said at that house somebody said to do this? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. What are you referring to? A. Well, John Boy and Arlo and Theda, they weren't decision makers. I mean they couldn't give this kind. It wasn't their idea to go down there and pick her up, it wasn't their idea. They did what they were told. Q. You have told us what Arlo told you already, and I don't recall you saying anything about him saying that someone issued an order or said anything at that house. Do you recall him saying that anybody at that house said anything about Ms. Pictou-Aquash being killed? A. John Boy and Theda went in that house, and when they came out it was with the instructions to kill her. Q. That's what Arlo told you? A. I almost say it verbatim in those exact words, but that was the impression of what I got out of what he told me. Q. I am not trying to nitpick with you. A. I understand. Q. I nitpick with you, but it is very, very important. I want to know if you heard from Arlo's mouth something about him knowing that she was going to be killed in advance of her death? Did you hear anything in that regard? A. Up until the time they went to that house, my opinion he didn't know she was going to be killed, but when they left that house they knew. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. They took her out and shot her. Somewhere in there, so I mean -- Q. Well, we are here about what Arlo said, and did Arlo tell you that he knew, or are you making that assumption? A. I am very careful about making an assumption on this. It is just that when John Boy and Theda came out of that house, because Theda took Anna Mae's jewelry, took some of her jewelry. Q. So as you are talking to us now you remember Arlo saying something about Theda taking Anna Mae's jewelry? A. Somewhere in the course of that, yes. Q. Is that something that you could have read, sir? A. No. Certain things I remember because I had not heard them before. I can't remember the point that you are going to, but there was something I had been asked, and I wasn't sure if I had read that part. Q. Mr. McMahon had asked you what Arlo had said, and I don't recall you saying anything about jewelry. Maybe I missed it. A. Maybe I forgot to say it to him, but the deal is -- Q. Because you and I have had a telephone conversation? A. Yes, we have. Q. Didn't you say to me that this is a situation of Arlo being in the wrong place at the wrong time? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Didn't you say to me that from everything Arlo told you that this was a complete surprise on his part? A. Something to that effect. Q. I guess I am asking you if you would say something to the effect that from what Arlo told you, this was a complete surprise on his part, why the change? A. I don't think I am changing. See, because it all hinges at that house, alright, because I think there was a complete surprise to him that that decision had been made. Q. Well, do you know at what point he became aware of the decision, did he tell you? A. When he got out of that car and started walking to where she was killed. Q. What did he say about that? A. They got out of the car, and they had the gun and they walked to the thing. So now I am making an assumption, okay, I am making an assumption he knew by then that something was going to happen. Q. You use the word they, it includes a lot of people? A. John Boy and Arlo got out of that car with Anna Mae and walked her to that spot. Q. Arlo never said he had the gun, did he? A. No, he never said he had the gun. Q. He didn't know that John Boy had the gun, would you JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. No, I can't agree or disagree with that. Q. You don't know? A. Right. Q. And that John Boy shot her, and that was a surprise to Arlo that she would be shot? A. I don't know. Q. Did he say that to you? A. Did he say that it was a surprise to him. Q. It was a surprise when she was killed? A. No, he didn't use those words. Q. What words did he use that led you to say to me that something to the effect this was a surprise to him? A. He was picking Anna Mae up in Denver and taking her to the house, wherever she was held here in Rapid and then taking her to the house in Rosebud, alright. I had the feeling that none of those three that took her up to that point really knew what the outcome was going to be, because somebody was telling them what to do. But when they left that house, somebody amongst them knew what was going to happen. So to me I would say that the surprise, Arlo was surprised that this happened to her, but it was after that visit to that house. Q. You just said that you think that somebody knew what was going to happen when they left that house, right, sir? Somebody in that car? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. But Arlo didn't tell you that he knew what was going to happen when they left that house, did he? A. The best I remember what he said was that when John Boy and Theda came out of that house, they took her where she was shot, and then he and John Boy got out of the car, alright, and walked her to where she was at, alright, and John Boy had her kneel down and shot her in the back of the head. And if I remember correctly, there was something about maybe a blanket or something, but I may be confused about that. Q. So you are telling us what he said, you are remembering, you are visualizing him talking to you wherever it was you were talking and trying to tell us also what he said? A. I mean he said what he said to me, yes, he did. Q. As you recounted all this you didn't say anything about her begging for her life, or saying please don't shoot me, or mentioning anything about her kids? A. Say this again. Q. As you just told us what you he said happened? A. He told me about her begging for her life and her kid. Q. Is your position he told you she was begging for her life on the walk out to the ravine? A. Yes. Q. And sir, you don't know whether she was begging when Theda and John Boy went in to this house by the Indian JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. No, she was. Q. You are telling us that he told you she was begging when they went in to the house, is that right? A. Yes. Q. And that when the other two of course went in the house he would be in the car alone with her? A. Yes. Q. I want to ask you if you, now you have spoken with an individual about this matter and that was tape recorded, have you not? A. Yes. Q. You know an individual by the name of Neil Chapman? A. Yes. Q. He interviewed you about this, did he not? A. Yes. Q. Did you know he was taping it as he was interviewing you? A. Yes. Q. Did you say this to him, and I am at page 8. MR. McMAHON: Excuse me, Your Honor, I believe this is improper impeachment, he can refresh his recollection? THE COURT: True. MR. RENSCH: Can we approach for a moment, please? THE COURT: You may. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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( Bench Conference) MR. RENSCH: This is a prior inconsistency, it need not be under oath. I can ask him if he was asked the question and he denies it, then he has access to the document. I am looking at a prior inconsistent statement in this interview and it's my intent to ask him if he made the statement. THE COURT: You haven't asked him yet. MR. RENSCH: No, I haven't, I think it's my choice if I want to let him refresh his recollection or ask him outright. THE COURT: You were referring to the pages were you impeaching him before you asked the question. MR. RENSCH: I was just doing that so counsel would know where I was at. Do you want me to do some other procedure, I think I can, but I think I am allowed to say did you say this, and if he didn't, he can deny it, and it would be my option to bring in the person who made the statement to tie it up. I don't think I have to throw it in front of him to ask him the question. THE COURT: You haven't asked the question yet, I think that's the point. MR. RENSCH: Do you want me to put it in front of him. THE COURT: What you do is up to you, but you haven't asked a predicate question yet that you have either to JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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