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A. What you don't understand, we had many conversations all over the place. As I said earlier, they took place many different times, they involved some of the same inquiries and some of the same responses. The responses would change, and sometimes they would be the same. Q. Well, that sounds like you talked to him a lot more than six times if you don't mind my saying. A. As I said, six times, possibly a dozen. Q. You said before this jury six times, possibly a dozen, is that what you are telling us, sir? A. That's what I recall. Q. You want to be a reporter, don't you, sir? A. No, I don't want to be a reporter. Q. You have been in contact with an individual by the name of Paul DeMain, have you not, sir? A. I know Paul DeMain, yes. Q. Who is he? A. He is editor of a newspaper, News From Indian country, or Indian Country News. Q. You would like to be a writer for him, wouldn't you? A. No. Q. He's paid you money, hasn't he? A. He has paid me money, he has bought some of the products that I have, CD's, what have you. Q. He has paid you to write stories for him, hasn't he? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Does he pay you in any way in connection with Arlo's case? A. No. Q. You ever received any moneys from anybody in connection with Arlo's case? A. No. Q. Here you are not testifying out of any ill will, you love this man, he is your brother? A. Yes. Q. You indicated that Mr. DeMain had purchased some products from you, you have a Web site on the internet, don't you, sir? A. Yes. Q. And you sell tapes of people who were involved in the American Indian Movement speaking about the movement, do you not? A. No. Q. Well, do you sell a tape by John Trudell? A. No. Q. You don't sell a tape where John Trudell's voice is on the tape at all? Please answer out loud, sir? A. No, I don't. Q. Who, which tapes, what do you sell? A. CD ' s . JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. Of Native American speeches. Q. Native American speeches, okay. Don't you sell a CD of a speech that was a 1976 on the 4th of July by an individual named John Trudell? A. No, I don't. Q. Who makes that speech? A. I am sorry. Q. Who makes that speech? A. Who makes what speech? Q. The speech you sell by John Trudell? A. I don' t. Q. You in the '70's went around with a tape recorder and interviewed people about events, didn't you, sir? A. I carried, yes. Q. And you did that so you could record their oral history, didn't you, sir? A. No. Q. What did you do it for? A. So other people could hear what they had to say. Q. You have also worked at a radio station for a period of time in Denver, or in Colorado, have you not, sir? A. Yes. Q. What was the name of the radio station? A. KGNU. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. I didn't have a job there. Q. I asked if you worked there, you said yes. What did do you there? A. I was a volunteer producer. Q. What is does a volunteer producer do? A. Produces programs for radio broadcasts. Q. You know how to edit tape recordings, don't you, sir? A. Yes. Q. You know how to tape record someone's voice if they are speaking, don't you, sir. A. Yes. Q. You have tape recording equipment, don't you, sir? A. Yes. Q. How much tape recording equipment do you have, sir? A. Cassette recorder, microphone, head phones, computer, that's about it. Q. You talked to Arlo many times about this case, didn't you, sir? A. Yes. Q. And you knew that it was, was the subject of a great deal of interest across these country, did you not? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever once tape record him talking about it? A. Nope. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. Because he didn't want me to. Q. But you tape record the voices of other people to record what they say, don't you? A. Yes. Q. So that if someone wants to listen to what they say, they don't have to rely on your recollection, they can just hear their voices? A. Exactly. Q. What would be the importance of doing that? A. The importance of doing that would be that I could in no way ever attempt to paraphrase or repeat what other people have to say, that they their knowledge and their intelligence is original, and I would do them a great injustice by attempting to do so. Therefore I record their statements in and of themselves and let people listen for themselves. Q. In that sense, sir, then by trying to summarize what Mr. Looking Cloud has said you are doing him an injustice, would you agree? A. No. Q. Because you could in no way remember everything he said, could you? A. I am sorry. Q. Because you could in no way remember everything he said, could you? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Did Arlo tell you that it was a .38 pistol? A. Yes. Q. And that he is the one who had the gun and handed it to John Boy, that's what you are telling us? A. He told me that he handed the gun to John Boy. Q. How many times did he tell you that? A. Out of, using a percentage, I would say probably about sixty to seventy percent of the time. Q. What he really told you, sir, was he was going over to Troy Lynn's to meet Joe Morgan? A. I am sorry. Q. What he really told you was he was going over to Troy Lynn's to meet Joe Morgan that night, didn't he tell you that? A. No. Q. When he got there Theda asked him to drive to Rapid City, did he tell you that? A. No. Q. And when he got to Rapid City he stayed at an abandoned apartment, did he tell you that? A. No. Q. And that he went when he was in Rapid City and met up with a friend by the name of Tony Red Cloud, did he tell you that? A. No. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. I didn't say that. Q. Did you ever hear the name Tony Red Cloud from Arlo? A. I have heard the name, but I haven't heard it from Arlo. Q. And that they went down to Rosebud, he tell you that? A. No, he didn't tell me he went to Rosebud with Tony Red Cloud. Q. I didn't ask you if he went to Rosebud with Tony Red Cloud. A. You had a couple questions together, I couldn't differentiate. Q. Arlo told you he went to Rosebud, is that what you said? A. Yes. Q. This vehicle was stopped out on the road and John Boy took Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the vehicle, he told you that, didn't he? A. No. Q. And Theda told him to follow, or John Boy told him to come along, he told you that, didn't he? A. I am sorry, your questions aren't really clear to me. Can you restate the last question? Q. What's unclear about the last question? A. I didn't understand it. Q. Did Arlo tell you that John Boy took Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the vehicle? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. And that John Boy then walked her up to the edge of an embankment, and either Theda or John Boy told Arlo to come along, he tell you that? A. No. Q. And that when Ms. Pictou-Aquash was executed it was a complete surprise to him, did he tell you that? A. He told me that. Q. He told you that when she was shot it was a complete surprise to him? A. Yes. Q. Why would it be a complete surprise to somebody that a person was shot if he supposedly is handing the other guy the gun? A. That depends on which time we had the conversation and which question, and how he changes in, his responses variate. Q. It does, and that's why I have asked you where these conversations have taken place, and what he said during these conversations. So now which conversation was it that he told you this was a surprise when Ms. Pictou-Aquash was killed? A. I couldn't say. Q. How many times did he say that to you? A. I would say about thirty to forty percent of the time. Q. Well, how many conversations are we talking about so we can get a sense of how many times? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. And the last conversation you had with him was where? A. At my house in Denver. Q. Who was present? A. One of my sons might have been present. Q. What did Arlo say and what did you say? A. I think we are probably just talking about what was going to happen with this case, and if anything was going to develop and what have you. Q. Well, did he tell you anything about the event that night? A. No, not at this stage. Q. So this is one of the twelve conversations you are talking about? A. Or more. I mean I have known Arlo my whole life, and he comes and he visits me often and we have a lot of conversations, and so what you are suggesting doesn't make sense to me. Q. Is this funny to you, sir? A. No, you are funny to me. Q. I am, likewise. A. I am sorry. MR. RENSCH: Nothing further. THE COURT: Redirect. MR. McMAHON: No, sir. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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next witness. MR. McMAHON: John Trudell. JOHN TRUDELL, called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and said as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McMAHON: Q. State your name, please? A. My name is John Trudell. Q. Where do you live, Mr. Trudell? A. In Los Angeles, California. Q. How long have you lived in California? A. Since about 1979. Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a writer and a performer, actor, speaker, in that area. Q. You currently have a band? A. Yeah, Bad Dog. Q. Have you been an entertainer for quite a while? A. Twenty years. Q. Where were you born and raised? A. I was born in Omaha, Nebraska, and I was raised in small communities around Omaha, and my reservation is Sante in JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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until that time maybe I had lived in both communities, both worlds equally. Q. You did what at seventeen? A. I enlisted in the Navy. Q. In the Navy, okay. How long were you in the Navy? A. Four years. Three years and ten months. Q. Where did you go after that? A. I stayed in southern California, because I was home ported in Long Beach. I went to school for a while in San Bernardino, and figured out that wasn't really working out for me, and then I went to the Alcatraz occupation in 1969. Q. What do you had mean by the Alcatraz occupation? A. In 1969 collective native community, we called ourselves Indians of all Tribes Alcatraz, but we occupied the former prison under the 1868, in relationship to the 1868 Fort Laramie treaty about surplus government lands reverting to native use. Q. About 1969 or so did you become somewhat of an activist? A. Yes, 100 percent. Q. How old are you now? A. I will be 58 next week. Q. Have you ever been involved with the AIM organization? A. I was chairman of AIM from 1973 to around 1979. Q. What did you do as chairman of AIM? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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really what, I mean the title is chairman, but in reality I acted as a spokesman. I looked at that as what my role was. It wasn't so much, because AIM at that time with the leadership, you know, we all had different supporters. I mean each leader had their own group of people around them, but I never really looked at my role as being an order giver, it was more to speak, because that is, I always felt that's why. When I was nominated to be, actually was named cochairman, and there was an incident and I became chairman, but I always felt it was the people liked my analysis of things. Q. Did you know Anna Mae Pictou-Aquash? A. Pardon? Q. Did you know Anna Mae Aquash? A. Yes, I did. Q. When did you first meet her? A. I met her at, I think it was in Minneapolis, but it was at an Indian education conference in Minneapolis. I think it was the summer of 1970. July or August, something like that. Q. Did you become friends with her? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you see her occasionally off and on since 1970 then? A. I didn't see her again until in the summer of '70, and I think the next time I remember seeing her was in 1974 at the Means-Banks trial in St. Paul. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. Yes, I did. Q. What time of the year did you see her? A. I saw her in, at the Farmington AIM conference or convention in, that would have been in June of 1975. I saw her then, and then I saw her again in September of 1975 in Los Angeles. Q. So when you saw her at the Farmington convention did you have any conversations with her? A. Yes, I did. Q. Was she concerned about anything at that time? A. She was concerned because she had been accused of being an informant, and because we had some discussion about that, but at the time my feeling was, what I got out of it, she was just more angry. I didn't sense really it was about fear, but she was really upset that people were making this accusation to her. Q. After the Farmington convention, when was it that you saw her next? A. Pardon. Q. When did you see her next after that convention? A. After that I saw her in Los Angeles, I think it was September of '75. Q. Where was that that you saw her in LA? A. Anna Mae and Miwak Butler had arrived in LA and had been JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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the civil brand center, and Anna Mae was cut loose. So I spent time with her. There was a Chuck Salazar, Ernie Peters and myself, and the White Bear family. Q. I am sorry, the what? A. White Bear. So, and at that time because Miwak had been arrested, and all of this was going on in relationship to the fire fight in Oglala the previous summer. Between Chuck and Ernie and myself we tried to, one of us always stayed with her as much as possible just to act in the capacity of being security. Q. Who was Anna Mae staying with while she was in California then? A. Between White Bear's and I think maybe one evening or so she might have spent at Chuck Salazar's, and but basically at the White Bear family. Q. What was her state of mind at that time? A. At that time she, it was about more than being angry, she was afraid. Q. Did she leave while you were still there? A. Pardon? Q. I mean did you, were you in California when she left California, let me ask it that way? A. Chuck Salazar, Ernie Peters and myself, we took her to the airport. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. She was going to Denver. Q. You know why she was going to Denver? A. No, I don't know why she was. She didn't say, but somebody had gotten in touch with her, and I don't know who it was, but someone had gotten in touch with her to go to Denver. Q. Did you ever see Anna Mae again? A. No. Q. So September of '75 would have been the last time that you saw her? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever talk with her on the phone after that? A. No. Q. How did you find out she had been killed? A. I found out that she was killed, it was in a conversation I had with Dennis Banks in Berkley some time in '76. February, March, some time in '76. At this time I didn't know there had been a body found, and Dennis mentioned to me, he said, well, that body they found in Pine Ridge or Wanblee, he said I think it is Anna Mae. This was the first that I had known. Q. Now prior to discovering that she had been killed, did you ever receive anything that made you believe she was in danger? A. Well, two things. I mean in September when I saw her, JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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